Al Sharq Forum Founding Chairman Wadah Khanfar spoke to External. Stating that the regional states have decided to work within the prescription determined by the Americans on their behalf, Khanfar stated that this is 'shameful'. He emphasized that one of the reasons for the conflicts in the Middle East and the situation of Gaza is that my regional states have been acting in line with American wishes for decades.
Wadah Khanfar answered our questions about the basic discussions such as the location of the countries of the region in the Gaza conflict, the two-state solution plans, the attitude of the international community and the solution of the Palestinian problem.
'The current reality in the region is shameful'
I did several interviews about Gaza, but one was very striking. Former Israeli peace negotiator Daniel Levy, a senior adviser to the government of former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, said it was a shame for Arabs that the country that sued Israel before the International Court of Justice was South Africa. Let's start with this comment. You are also Arabs, but I am sure you will take an objective approach.
I think this is embarrassing, there's no doubt about it. Because the states of the region decided to work in the ceiling that the Americans actually determined for them. And as you know, Americans support Israelis more than anyone else. In other words, we are faced with a situation where no one takes the right initiative at the reach stage, and everyone is trying to stand on their own square meter area and maneuver. Sometimes the best thing they can do is have conversations that have nothing to do with reality on the field.
The situation in Gaza has gone far beyond any conflict from 1945 to the present. At a time when countries were paralyzed and could only shyly have some speeches without confronting the Israelis or trying to do something that broke the norm, we have never seen starve death in front of the public as it is today. We are in a situation where you need something new, something compelling, something that will stop the current aggression.
Unfortunately, I agree that the current reality in the region is embarrassing and that they will look back at this moment for generations and be ashamed of the reaction of our governments to the current crisis.
'Gaza West reveals deep racism in its mind'
You have underlined the issue of hypocrisy a few times. Do you mean that the West or the Saudis were hypocrites, or were those who signed the Ibrahim Agreement hypocrites? Because when signing this agreement with Israel, they knew how the agreement would give Israel strength, and that the Gazans and Palestinians would remain unfounded.
I believe that the West has advocated the values of liberalism, the rule of law, justice, equality and human rights for the last perhaps three centuries. For this reason, they were basically trying to implement a global philosophy that they thought should dominate the world.
But we have seen that these ideals, these values, are used in the hands of power to create a kind of hegemony rather than real justice, equality and the rule of law. Gaza has uncovered the deep racism in the Western mind about how to deal with us. In other words, in the eyes of the Western Powers, there are two categories of people; Europeans, that is, themselves and Westerners, of course, the Americans, including this and the rest of the world. The rest of the world doesn't necessarily need to take advantage of the fruits of liberalism that the West should have. This is an aspect of hypocrisy. The second aspect of hypocrisy, as you have rightly pointed out, is that our governments, have been acting in one way or another for decades, which have tried to appease the Americans, to calm the Israelis, secure their thrones and regimes, and now apply the prescriptions that the Americans have given us.
So when the Americans lead the Abraham Agreements, governments in this region applaud and follow it without any assurance that it will bring justice for the Palestinians or lead to the national security of the region. And that's why this area is in turmoil. For this reason, our governments cannot gain legitimacy in the eyes of the public. For this reason, civil wars are taking place all over this region. For this reason, if we continue to maintain a Western-centered approach to our own interests and own cases, such as the Palestinian cause, we will not reach security and prosperity.
'Worst test since 1945'
Do you think that Israel is not declared a war criminal and genocide state due to these actions pave the way for greater disasters in the international community?
The international community is experiencing one of the worst tests since 1945 because in 1945 they decided that the world should be built on new foundations. The United Nations and Security Council were established to guarantee the security of the world. There is international law that guarantees that states do not oppose each other and lead to a new war. Now the current reality has destroyed all of this. There is currently no United Nations. They have nothing to do with the issue because in the Security Council, the Americans veto every ceasefire decision and proposal. On the other hand, Israelis are attacking the United Nations, accusing the Secretary General of antisemitism. It was the same United Nations that decided on the partition of Palestine in 1947 by only 33 votes. And at the time, the United Nations had only 57 members. Of these, 33 voted to divide Palestine and establish Israel. Now this private institution is being attacked for claiming anti-Semitic. Today, we have nearly 200 states, while 154 of them voted against Israel. So you see how double standards happen.
International law is being attacked. There is no such thing as international law anymore at this stage because Israel actually violated every paragraph of every convention, every international law, without accounting anyone, especially the Americans who offered them. So what kind of world order do we have? This is a world order dominated by chaos. This is a world order that will lead to much more conflicts in the future, and everyone can do what they want, without caring about anyone.
'We can establish our own integration model in the region'
Some analysts on the world order say the U.S. is no longer in a position to mediate crises anywhere in the world, including the Israel-Palestinian crisis or the two-state solution. There are some voices that say that China can be a good defender of this. Do you think that the power of Asia can solve some problems by approaching the Middle East?
Actually, it doesn't have to be like this. I do not trust hegemonic forces in any way. I am currently welcomed by the rise of China because the centrality of American foreign policy and the American hegemony in the world have led us to the terrible reality we are in. In my opinion, China's posing against Americans is welcome. However, it is not a unipolar system where China is at the top, which will replace it. What we, as people in this region, should desire is to have our own geopolitical center, where we can sit with the Chinese, Americans and Russians through integration between our nations in the Middle East and negotiate a much better world order, better protecting our own rights.
We should not be at the mercy of the Americans or the Chinese. This is a bad policy. We have to look inside. We have nations such as Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Kurds. We have been living together in this part of the world for thousands of years. And we could establish a center where that center would be politically and economically integrated; administrative, political integration, economic integration; we could be a strong actor in the international order as Europe does. Because Europe is the most fragmented continent in the world. After the Second World War, they realized that they had to go to integration. And now we have a European Union that can present itself as an important actor in the economic and political world.
'Two-state solution is now an attempt to save Israel's image'
A two-state solution... There is no party left on the Israeli side that accepts this. In addition, among leftist Israeli intellectuals who want to defend the rights of Gaza civilians, the following is discussed: There is a great fact of increasing settlements, in this way, they say that a two-state solution is impossible because it is a problem for Palestinians. Where will the two-state solution be? Is it really realistic? What have we been discussing for decades?
I think that the current situation, in which the international community, especially the Americans, has been resurrecting the two-state solution after 30 years of negotiations in Oslo, which we have not achieved any results, is only aimed at ending the current conflict with a solution. This makes Israel, which has strategically lost in this war, more meaningful for the future because Israel's international image is terrible. Israel is a country accused of genocide. Israel is a country that starves people. Therefore, they want to change the image of Israel with the process that Israel negotiates with the Palestinians. Another myth called the two-state solution... In other words, in the current situation, he is actually trying to bring us back to the state of the Palestinian issue before October 7th. I believe that the two-state solution will be rejected by the Israelis, as it has been rejected for the last 30 years since Oslo. You should not forget that according to the Oslo Agreement signed by the Israelis, we could celebrate the 25th anniversary of the Palestinian state this year. But nothing happened. So how are we going to talk about two-state solutions? Americans talk about a state without sovereignty, as in South Africa, a state that has no control over its borders, water, its own resources or security. So they largely ask us to declare something called a state, which is not in any international policy dictionary. A state that does not actually exist in any way just to save the image of Israel...
'It must be a brave regional initiative'
You say that the USA can no longer manage this crisis and you say that you do not trust other hegemonic powers such as China and Russia. In your opinion, who can solve this crisis or take on the task of mediating?
If there is a bold regional initiative, then we can subject the Americans and international powers to this choice: Either you will stop the Israelis or this region will react very harshly to you. Americans are happy with most of our leaders... That's why the conflict continues for now. It will most likely continue in different ways and ways. We can have a ceasefire for a few days, a few weeks, then another conflict arises. Even if they manage to destroy Hamas in Gaza, there will be a new generation to fight for the Palestinian rights because there was no Hamas before 1987. Before 1987, the PLO was founded on exactly the same idea of the Palestine Liberation Organization. They were destroyed, but then another generation revolted in Palestine to defend human rights. So it's not about Hamas. It is a matter of the rights of the Palestinians and the free feeling of this region, the tutelage of American and Israeli interests and the right not to be under their fundamental colonialism.
'The PLO should be reformed to become representatives of all Palestinian segments'
How do you see the future of Gaza? Let's talk about how the new administration will be shaped after the war. Do you think a formula without Hamas is possible as the USA wants?
It is not possible to have a formula without Hamas in Gaza. It is not possible to have a formula without Hamas in the Palestinian territories in Gaza and the West Bank. In my opinion, Hamas should join the Palestinian organization PLO.
However, the PLO does not like this idea.
The PLO will welcome it if this is allowed. The current balance of power internationally and perhaps regionally does not force this. However, Hamas announced their willingness to join the PLO and I think the PLO will eventually do this to resurrect itself because the PLO is a corpse today. There is no such thing as PLO, you know. So I'm not talking about the Palestinian National Authority in the West Bank. I'm talking about the PLO, which has existed as the representative of the struggle of the Palestinians since the early 1960s. This PLO should become the umbrella that all Palestinians struggle to end the occupation. And it must be reformed so that it can become representatives of all Palestinian segments within and outside Palestine. Because we have 7-8 million Palestinians living in the diaspora. They also have the right to be represented in the PLO.
Therefore, if there is an organ representing the PLO, Hamas will also be a member of it. At that time, we can say that as Palestinians, we have a united front that in the future can find a way to establish a Palestinian state, negotiate, fight or something like that. However, this is a Palestinian decision, not the decision of America or Israel.
'America's Gaza plan does not offer a solution for Palestine'
So what do you think about the post-war Gaza administration?
I think the Americans and many forces in the region are pressing for the technocratic government in the West Bank and Gaza, which will be formed with a prime minister with more authority than the President of the Palestinian National Authority, Mahmoud Abbas. And this technocratic government will be able to work to rebuild Gaza and create a period in which elections can be held later.
This plan, which the Americans bought for many actors in the region, unfortunately, does not answer in a sense to the basic questions about the withdrawal of the Israeli army from Gaza or the future of the Palestinian struggle. Because this is actually a proposal aimed at ending the conflict without connecting Israel to a permanent solution. And that question itself. If there are serious commitments from the Americans that will force Israelis to withdraw completely from Gaza, to end the blockade completely and accept the reconstruction of Gaza, then I think we will reach a good agreement and it can be sustainable.